Yeah, I was reading that part of the post and thinking "this isn't family style, this is Tapas". I sort of think this was false advertising on the part of the Thai restaurant.
Also, this post describes perfectly why I'm not the greatest fan of Tapas. So now instead of one or two dishes, I have to think of like 10 I want. And not just 10 I want, but also my wife (or friend or family member) may want as well. And oh yeah, if I really do like something, I get like one bite and then no more.
Tapas can be very enjoyable if they encourage you to order just a few dishes at a time but order in multiple rounds so the food keeps flowing (closer to a dim sum). And if you do really like something, you can order it again for the next round. I went with my wife and in-laws to a Balkan place in Chicago that runs like that and we all left satisfied. (Being able to get 2 rounds of cevapi helped!)
Do tapas places not do that? Expecting people to pick out everything they want for the duration at the beginning in that context sounds insane. Then again it wouldn't surprise me, given how I've seen places in the US blindly apply this model to other imported cuisine.
Lots of restaurants in Japan do a thing where you get all you can eat and all you can drink for a couple of hours at a fixed price per person. You order more anytime you want and either the tables have call buttons or staff are constantly walking around to facilitate it. I love this model because it makes group outings easy to manage and takes all the pressure off of ordering. It's a shame that it doesn't seem to exist in the US at all.
I agree that the best model is all-you-can-eat for $X per person for Y hours (like those Japanese places--also what that Balkan joint did). Though the dim sum model works too.
Yeah to be clear, my (semi) anti-Tapas stance is definitely a bit of a quirky me thing. Have been to Tapas restaurants before and enjoyed myself. Just sort of based on my eating preferences, I'd rather go to a more "traditional" restaurant if that makes any sense.
Funny story about going to restaurants and being hungry. About 5-6 years ago I worked with someone who went with her husband to the Salt Bae Turkish steakhouse in midtown Manhattan. This is just after Salt Bae became famous for his stupid salt sprinkling thing. So this was definitely at the height of his popularity (before everyone found out what goober this guy is).
So she basically told us how her and her husband paid this exorbitant amount of money for the steaks...only to be still quite hungry afterwards. If I remember correctly the coda to this story is they went to a taco bell afterwards and enjoyed it more.
OK, here's another off-topic British-vs-American-English thing. 'Tapa' in Spanish is a countable noun: one tapa, two tapas. But for whatever reason 'tapas' (and only 'tapas') has made it into British English as a mass noun, so you eat some tapas (pronounced with a final 'sss' sound, so not like a plural) in the same way that you would eat some porridge. But you and Toiler are using 'tapas' as a countable noun - you say *they are* great and *they are* priced reasonably in Spain. Is this how it works in American English, or do you just speak Spanish? (See also mass Lego vs countable Legos, although whether that has anything to do with Danish I have no idea.)
Tapa is definitely countable in America. Wtf is wrong with the British that it's a mass noun? It's countable in the original language, why would that change? This is as weird as how the British say they're getting a Chinese as if it's normal to use Chinese as a noun.
I wonder if ‘tapas’ just doesn’t *look* like a plural to English-speakers’ eyes, even though it ends in ‘s’. (Because the preceding letter is a vowel?) But, then, Americans seem to have managed it. I don’t know. It’s interesting stuff - I remember reading Garfield as a kid and finding it very odd that Jim Davis couldn’t spell the name of Garfield’s favourite food, and then only realising twenty years later that somehow Americans had adopted lasagna in the singular and Brits lasagne in the plural. What can I say? We love a plural.
It actually made me mildly angry to hear an anecdote of a restaurant calling small plates/tapas "family style". There's nothing "family" about it. This feels like the trope of a manipulate boss trying to say the workplace is "like a family". They're just cramming in words with positive associations that have nothing to do with their business so hopefully you don't notice them being shit.
If I hear "family style" then you'd better be like one of those Chinese restaurants that actual Chinese peplle go to where you get a bucket of rice and every main is an enormous platter that no normal person could possibly eat all of. The portions are large because they're supposed to be able to feed a family. I enjoy tapas but there's nothing family oriented about tapas at all, and it really starts to break down when you get to more than 3 or 4 people.
The most revealing part of the story was this line “the prices has not come down proportionately”. You just described succinctly why we might be headed for actual fascism. Seriously. Because my suspicion is your annoyance at this Thai restaurant was like 50% they went “family style” and 50% they raised prices. And what you discovered is why people hate hate hate even moderate price increases. You feel cheated. Even if you weren’t cheated. The restaurant may have seen their rent go up or had their suppliers raise prices and felt like they had no choice but to increase prices (doesn’t help they tried to obfuscate their price increase with this change to “family style”). And yet it still sucks to see that you have to pay more for the exact same thing you had like 6 months prior. So yeah, you inadvertently wrote the perfect “why Trump won” post.
Second and getting into the more “meat” of your article. I am part Indian. I bring this up to note that I absolutely was brought up in a communal eating culture where food is shared. So when I say this, I feel like I have some ground to stand on. Your husband’s insistence that you think about whether he wants some of the food you are ordering just for yourself is nuts. All of your posts seem to indicate your husband is a lovely man, a good partner and a good father. But I think this post is a good reminder no one is perfect. Because this food eating habit of your husband is not about communal eating, this seems to be some weird quirk with your husband. Again if this your husband’s worst flaw I’d say you lucked out. But in my book this is definitely a flaw.
I’ve hammed it up for the article, as it’s meant to be humorous! At this point in time he doesn’t care so much, but he was very anal about it when we first started dating.
Fair enough. Wasn't under the idea he was like "I demand you think of my needs when you get food". I don't want to give you that impression. But stand by claim this is at least little bit weird behavior.
This is actually sort of a jumping off point for a suggestion for a future post; you're theory as to why Reddit relationship advice posts have gone so negative (Think you've either written or tweeted about this). Because in reading this post, I immediately started thinking what the reddit advice comments would be. And I feel pretty confident a decent number of them would have been "You need to divorce him now! He clearly doesn't respect you. He is literally trying to steal from you! Run away, run away!"
My theory as to why relationship advice has gone so negative extreme is twofold. One, it's part of the phenomenon whereby social media encourages people to have "bold" hot takes. Measured responses to questions don't get engagement. Angry screeds get people's attention. So writing with too many exclamation points to break up with someone is a sure fire way to get "likes" and comments back. But I think second is that we've come to a point where perhaps some people, especially younger people have some unrealistic expectations for their romantic partners. I think the last 10-20 years there has been a lot of good writing and reckoning with the fact that too many relationships are too imbalanced whereby one partner (usually the guy) is not pulling their weight either with helping around the house, money or just genuinely being supportive of their partner (think you did a good job covering some of this in this post https://www.cartoonshateher.com/p/you-dont-like-women-you-like-boobs). But I wonder if that very useful reckoning has led to a lot of young people having unrealistic expectations for their partners that he/she be genuinely perfect. An expectation literally no one is capable of meeting.
Sort of half baked theory on my part. But again, why I though it could be a useful topic for a future post.
Yes, it’s one reason I don’t like reddit relationship advice, so much gets lost in the translation. I consider all of this “funny quirk that annoys me occasionally” not “I’m staying with my mother and bringing the kids”
I think this is true! there's a constantly mocked trend of people saying "my husband is great except for ..." and then giving some huge problem. But like - I get why people do that. Because reading an advice column literally the only thing I know about someone is their flaw or worst quality. So this is a futile attempt to concisely say "my partner has many good qualities and this is but a small part of their personality but I'd like help navigating it."
I think that everyone has one thing that reddit would call a horrible red flag and a reason for their partner to flee!
same! i come from a mediterranean family like her husband’s. whenever we go out, we order for ourselves but it’s always a given that if someone wants to try another persons dish, they can steal a bite, only sometimes asking permission. or the two people can exchange similar portions of their different dishes. my mom and i have literally traded plates, ate a little, then traded back. but i’ve never been told i couldn’t order what I wanted due to someone else’s preference.
CHH’s husband is definitely food Stalin. but there are worse flaws and as long as he only orders what CHH would really like, then it’s not that serious of a flaw.
It's kind of funny that much like real communism, the idea of harmonious cooperation where everyone is happy to work together quickly broke down and required an authoritarian dictator to seize power and insure that dissenters are kept in line.
My family shares bites of food and drinks for sure, but I order what I want to order! My husband is kind of a germaphobe (or just doesn’t want to get sick) so does not like sharing like that so I make sure to at least offer him the first bite or sip before my sickly relatives jump in.
I would like to liken this to a Food "Free Market with a light-touch Welfare State" where your food is yours but you get to choose _just one_ person to have a bit of their food.
I think price increases are more aggravating when they're done like this. If a meal at your favourite restaurant goes from $20 to $23 then that sucks, but it's life and you know that costs are going up for everything, so you can sort of understand it. When they try to hide the cost increases behind a smokescreen of making the dishes smaller, expecting you to buy more of them, and then calling it "family style", now it feels like they're pissing on your leg and telling you it's rain.
It's mostly just inflation. When inflation happens every place has two choices: raise prices or decrease portions.
I do think some places had ridiculously large portions in the past so it shouldn't *always* be prices that change. But I'm also a big eater so do find myself disappointed at some places, like the author.
I think the thing that baffles me is calling tapas-style family-style. Is this, like, an insane San Francisco thing? Like, in my mind:
Family style: entrées are meant to be shared, and each one will be _too big for one hungry adult_. This would be like what I'd expect at a Chinese restaurant with stir-fries or an Indian restaurant with curries. If we order one entrée per person we're taking home an entire day's worth of leftovers.
Tapas style: each plate is a cute little thing and we're going to have to order a gajillion of them. If they're more than appetizer place then the place is $$ (which is fine, but let's recognize what it is). The point of them being tiny is to experience a lot of variety.
What has radicalized me against these “tapas style that we call family style” places in the US is that each plate averages like $15-25 so I feel like I’m now paying $80-100 for the equivalent of an entree’s worth of food (plus the social pleasure of judging what is an appropriate amount of each dish to eat).
It’s amusing to me that you clearly have a little bit of remorse about sharing this crazy thing your husband does and having him rightly torn to shreds by the comments.
I am very glad my wife is not a popular blogger lol. I lose arguments with just her I would not want to add a bunch of internet stans to her side!
I highlighted that part and sent it to my husband, thanking him for not being like that. Luckily we have pretty similar attitudes to food so this has never come up (i.e. he doesn't need bites of my burrito; I don't touch his carne asada fries. I get sips of any cocktail he orders and vice versa.)
I feel like this problem comes partially from an Americanisation of some (southern) European traditions. When portions are very small, they come with the assumption that you order them continuously! Pinxos, tapas, zakouskys, etc, you order a bunch first (everyone asks for a few they like, scattershot style) and when inspired or you run out of a popular option you just... Get some more. And it comes fast, since it's generally pre-prepared. This removes the coordination problem, the fomo problem, the hunger problem, and the over ordering / food waste problem. But in the US, I've felt like it's kind of taboo to order multiple rounds of things? Maybe it's because they want you cleared out of the table quick?
Yeah, potentially relevant here is that he is Greek so there could be a cultural difference. Although I am half Jewish, my family was raised in more or less a WASP type culture.
That being said, maybe his extreme take on food sharing is a bit of OCD mixed with the culture? Could he try to do "one each of the same thing" again and check if the feeling fits?
It's taboo in part because there is some real economic incentives driving eating behavior and how restaurants operate in the US vs other parts of the world. https://www.restaurantmanifesto.com/turning-tables/
You're observation about restaurants in parts of Europe operate in comparison to American restaurants operate has real evidence behind it. In US, there is a real pressure to get you and your group to order and eat as quickly as possible. In other parts of the world, it's much more common for diners to stick around for hours just chatting maybe ordering another dish if after like 45 minutes of hanging out you start getting a bit hungry again. The business of American restaurants literally would not allow you stay that long.
Really? It’s extremely common in my experience as a server. It’s not really driven by management as much as the fact that servers make our money by tips. In the 3 hours that a table was sitting there, I could have made more money. No one ever tells them to leave, but it definitely is not something that we want happening.
If you work in a restaurant where seating is not egalitarian, then sure. But where I’ve worked, either a) my section is almost never at true full capacity or b) the hots(ess) seats each server in order. So every server is getting the same amount of covers, and thus, general opportunity for tips
I’ve never worked somewhere where getting them out of the restaurant faster = more total covers, except perhaps on Mother’s Day lol
I acknowledge some (few) restaurants are at max capacity daily, but it’s not the typical experience.
Sure, but only if your restaurant is popular enough that those people were stopping someone else who would have ordered. Most restaurants are not popular enough for that to be the case outside of maybe the peak busy times of Friday/Saturday evenings
I actually think restaurants don't pressure people to leave at all in the US. It's our own cultural norms as restaurant customers that cause us to hustle. Hanging out for hours at a restaurant table is seen as "taking up the table" so we hustle ourselves out. People assume it inconveniences the restaurant, but if there's no line for tables and it's not closing time, it doesn't.
I feel like it's a little bit of both. It doesn't always happen, but I have definitely been in situations where they really want to take your menus as soon as you order something, and the check appears without being asked for. It probably doesn't help that everything closes so early these days, either...
Only if there's actually a party to replace you for the table, though. If the restaurant is slow or the other tables are turning enough to prevent anyone from having to wait, it doesn't affect the tips at all.
I wonder if it is more of a problem at restaurants like the Thai one mentioned where they swapped over to the model? Certainly I've been to tapas restaurants in the US where they make sure to leave a menu because they plan on folks ordering more after the first round.
I've run into this at American Japanese restaurants that serve izakaya-style food (kushiyaki, shishamo, etc.) but take your order like you're doing a typical "one round of appetizers, then one main course per person" American dinner experience. Similarly to pintxos or tapas, these dishes are meant to be ordered continuously by a drinking group and served quickly. Trying to do it otherwise is jarring.
It doesn't help that they're squishing together a few Japanese concepts like "izakaya" and "ramen shop" into a single restaurant and then layering American sit-down service conventions on top of it. Is this a "lost in translation" situation or someone deciding that the model doesn't work here? I wish I knew. For what it's worth, I like the food! I just wish I could relax and order as I go, the way they're meant to be.
I get the “you signed up for this” and honestly, I love sharing food with the people I eat out with. However, the idea he gets pushed out of shape because you want to order something he doesn’t like as well is a bit bonkers. Then to read people order food you dont enjoy(pork and octopus) is even more rude.
Yeah I thought Mr CHH was overstepping some invisible line there.
I often order an entrée I know my wife will like (either by asking her or by knowing some of her favorites) and I like to do that to narrow down choices, as a tie breaker, or even so she can try two things she'll really like.
But if there was something on the menu I _really_ wanted to have, like, I never get to have that entrée, it's one of my favorites, but she won't eat it, I wouldn't let her preferences be a deal breaker. To me, that crosses the line between giving with generosity and being a people-pleaser.
Right? Especially if dining as a couple, the ability to each have a meal that *you* like, that the other may not, without having to cook two dinners, is a major feature!
Yes. I appreciate CHH’s honesty about her relationship and generally find her writing to be funny and intelligent and obviously I don’t actually know her or her husband, but… this is not the first time I’ve thought “wow, opposites attract. CHH is one of the most sensible people on the internet and… Mr. CHH is… not.”
I think we are both equally crazy but in very different ways. For example, there were years when I would cry every time he got into a car because I thought he was going to die in a car accident.
Yeah, I personally think a huge benefit of going out to eat is ordering something my husband doesn't like because I know he'll never cook it at home! When am I going to get to eat it if not when we're out?
I thought the same. Directionally I'm way more aligned with Mr CHH here but it feels like he's really pushing his advantage too far. If you're going to be a true food communist, then you aren't allowed to "not like" things on the menu (with the exception of allergens or maybe stuff that is extremely spicy). If you don't like what someone has ordered it's your loss, and if you're encouraging this system then you made your own bed.
OH MY GOD, NO. I told my husband early on that I would never be sharing my food, ever, and if he's one of those freaks who says he doesn't want fries and then proceeds to eat half of mine, we are breaking up INSTANTLY. I have, for some unfathomable reason, always been "the guy" in the scenario in relationships and dated men who pretend they don't actually love deep fried potatoes until I order the *exact amount of them that I personally want to eat*, and suddenly they are the French fry's biggest fan. I am also the world's pickiest eater and would simply lose my mind if there was seafood and mushrooms and lettuce based salad with goddamned fruit on it and people thought I should eat that on exchange for some of the thing I actually ordered and wanted for myself.
Okay, I might be a little nuts about that issue but I CANNOT FATHOM THIS REALITY. How do you survive this expectation?! 😂
Exactly. I used to send my husband those memes every time I came across them and say he was the girlfriend in the scenario. He has since learned that he better just order his own damn fries. lol
I understand someone saying they aren't hungry enough to order a full portion for themselves and asking to have a piece if you're ordering them, but I don't understand why someone woild say they actually don't want any and then suddenly 180 when they arrive. Did they forget what they tasted like or something?
Ha! My wife would always order first, and I’d make sure to order something different. It was perfectly okay if she ordered something I didn’t like, though.
What's very strange to me is that my wife and her family are all devout food capitalists just like CHH, but she still often does this strange dance with her own mother at restaurants where her mother asks what she's getting, often to order the same thing (to avoid FOMO if it looks better than what she ordered when it arrives), and my wife really tries to play coy and keep it to herself to prevent her doing it.
I've never managed to understand why. As ardent food capitalists, they were never going to share anyway, so it makes no difference. The most my wife has been able to offer as an explanation is that if her mother orders first she might get the last one before they run out (this has never happened).
I would do this. My mom would get annoyed as hell. I am already ordering X why don't you order Y? Uh I like X? Then she would grumpily order Y :P I think it's just OCD tbh. Which now makes me wonder about all the communists...
i don’t mind sharing the food, or even very small portions (i actually prefer it), but the idea of communally deciding what is being ordered is where i draw the line!
It's kind of a bummer and unfair that eating out is a stressful experience for you! I understand Mr. CHH cares more but do you never get to have it your way? When you go out to eat with your parents does he also insist that they share food?
My dad is not a big food sharing person, but my mom actually prefers it his way! My parents are divorced so it depends on who we are with. Even with all these disagreements, I still love going to restaurants with him more than almost anything together so clearly it’s not that bad!
I too have a giant appetite and find sharing food extremely stressful. I don't want to be the greedy pig who takes too much, then I see someone else taking more, and that pisses me off, and I feel bad about being pissed off, then I just end up hungry and unhappy.
OTOH not trying each other's food is slightly odd. I am full on food capitalist but my husband and I will always offer each other a taste of our food as a "try something new" style mentality.
I also don't get the "I don't want much" performance. Clearly they really do, because when I've taken people at their word on this, they are clearly pissed off at me for being a greedy pig who's eaten too much. Is it a way of being polite that has escaped me due to my inability to understand unspoken social rules? Perhaps a normal person will explain on this thread.
I had also never heard of this kind of dining being called "family style" - it's always "small plates" or "sharing plate" in Londlhn.
My wife and I will definitely share food when we go out to eat. Especially if we're at a fancier restaurant, if one of us ordered something that we think is particularly tasty we absolutely want the other to at least try it and see if they like it.
I think what caught my eye was CCH's husband almost preemptively saying she should consider if he'd like to have a bite or two before ordering. She followed up my own post to note she was "hamming up" the story a bit. But I definitely said to myself "I don't think I'd ever tell my wife 'hey when you order something, make sure to remember I'd like a few bites'".
Yeah isn’t the whole point of eating out so your wife can order something you hate? It’s cooking at home where you have to take everyone’s feelings into account (especially the kids!)
For me, the point is to get food better than what I can cook, or to try things I don't know how to cook. But I don't think my wife eats anything I won't like, so it's probably reversed for me.
my partner and I just like to order food we want but the other would also enjoy and then we try each other's food. we share an appetizer and/or dessert. best of all worlds, very little stress.
I am with someone that I love a lot, and it's true that in a good relationship, you make concessions for the other. I think overall the relationship that you describe is good, and the concessions that each person has made are fair. I think you guys have found a good way to balance the things that work well for each of you. That said, he's completely wrong about this and way over the line, so hopefully it is compensated for by his tolerance with your germ stuff, etc.. because he's CRAZY.
Consider food, uh, social democracy: where everyone orders their own plate and only orders with themselves in mind, but bites are shared freely among the table if desired.
this is the way! this is how I grew up and it was great. best of both worlds. sometimes two people would switch plates if they both discovered they liked the other person's better. everyone was happy!
I honestly broke out in a cold sweat reading this. I will generally share a bite of my food if asked, but ordering with anyone but myself in mind is where I draw the line. If I'm making dinner for my family 6 out of 7 nights a week and taking into account their preferences and needs, then when I go out to eat I'm ordering what I want and eating the whole thing.
“Early in our courtship, he warned me of his one major dealbreaker: I had to share my food with him. He told me about this the way someone might share that they have children from a previous marriage.” 😂
I’m definitely a food capitalist. The thought of other people sampling my food just bothers me, although I’ll make an occasional exception for my husband, or for my kids if we’ve agreed to split a dessert at a restaurant.
Calling small plates "family style" is very disingenuous. Family style should always infer big sharable portions.
Yeah, I was reading that part of the post and thinking "this isn't family style, this is Tapas". I sort of think this was false advertising on the part of the Thai restaurant.
Also, this post describes perfectly why I'm not the greatest fan of Tapas. So now instead of one or two dishes, I have to think of like 10 I want. And not just 10 I want, but also my wife (or friend or family member) may want as well. And oh yeah, if I really do like something, I get like one bite and then no more.
Tapas can be very enjoyable if they encourage you to order just a few dishes at a time but order in multiple rounds so the food keeps flowing (closer to a dim sum). And if you do really like something, you can order it again for the next round. I went with my wife and in-laws to a Balkan place in Chicago that runs like that and we all left satisfied. (Being able to get 2 rounds of cevapi helped!)
Do tapas places not do that? Expecting people to pick out everything they want for the duration at the beginning in that context sounds insane. Then again it wouldn't surprise me, given how I've seen places in the US blindly apply this model to other imported cuisine.
Lots of restaurants in Japan do a thing where you get all you can eat and all you can drink for a couple of hours at a fixed price per person. You order more anytime you want and either the tables have call buttons or staff are constantly walking around to facilitate it. I love this model because it makes group outings easy to manage and takes all the pressure off of ordering. It's a shame that it doesn't seem to exist in the US at all.
Some places don't, it's really annoying.
I agree that the best model is all-you-can-eat for $X per person for Y hours (like those Japanese places--also what that Balkan joint did). Though the dim sum model works too.
Yeah to be clear, my (semi) anti-Tapas stance is definitely a bit of a quirky me thing. Have been to Tapas restaurants before and enjoyed myself. Just sort of based on my eating preferences, I'd rather go to a more "traditional" restaurant if that makes any sense.
Who doesn’t love leaving a restaurant broke but still hungry though?!
Funny story about going to restaurants and being hungry. About 5-6 years ago I worked with someone who went with her husband to the Salt Bae Turkish steakhouse in midtown Manhattan. This is just after Salt Bae became famous for his stupid salt sprinkling thing. So this was definitely at the height of his popularity (before everyone found out what goober this guy is).
So she basically told us how her and her husband paid this exorbitant amount of money for the steaks...only to be still quite hungry afterwards. If I remember correctly the coda to this story is they went to a taco bell afterwards and enjoyed it more.
My thing about tapas is they're great if someone else is paying.
They're perfect for dinners with work colleagues where the company card comes out
Exactly…. Confusion between family style and small plates or tapas. Probably a language difficulty mixup
Tapas places are like this. Except in actual Spain where tapas are priced reasonably.
OK, here's another off-topic British-vs-American-English thing. 'Tapa' in Spanish is a countable noun: one tapa, two tapas. But for whatever reason 'tapas' (and only 'tapas') has made it into British English as a mass noun, so you eat some tapas (pronounced with a final 'sss' sound, so not like a plural) in the same way that you would eat some porridge. But you and Toiler are using 'tapas' as a countable noun - you say *they are* great and *they are* priced reasonably in Spain. Is this how it works in American English, or do you just speak Spanish? (See also mass Lego vs countable Legos, although whether that has anything to do with Danish I have no idea.)
It’s just an American English thing. “Tapas is” would sound weird to me.
Tapa is definitely countable in America. Wtf is wrong with the British that it's a mass noun? It's countable in the original language, why would that change? This is as weird as how the British say they're getting a Chinese as if it's normal to use Chinese as a noun.
I wonder if ‘tapas’ just doesn’t *look* like a plural to English-speakers’ eyes, even though it ends in ‘s’. (Because the preceding letter is a vowel?) But, then, Americans seem to have managed it. I don’t know. It’s interesting stuff - I remember reading Garfield as a kid and finding it very odd that Jim Davis couldn’t spell the name of Garfield’s favourite food, and then only realising twenty years later that somehow Americans had adopted lasagna in the singular and Brits lasagne in the plural. What can I say? We love a plural.
We used tapas as a plural noun in Florida (to be clear, I’m sure they still do, I just don’t live in the US anymore).
It actually made me mildly angry to hear an anecdote of a restaurant calling small plates/tapas "family style". There's nothing "family" about it. This feels like the trope of a manipulate boss trying to say the workplace is "like a family". They're just cramming in words with positive associations that have nothing to do with their business so hopefully you don't notice them being shit.
If I hear "family style" then you'd better be like one of those Chinese restaurants that actual Chinese peplle go to where you get a bucket of rice and every main is an enormous platter that no normal person could possibly eat all of. The portions are large because they're supposed to be able to feed a family. I enjoy tapas but there's nothing family oriented about tapas at all, and it really starts to break down when you get to more than 3 or 4 people.
A few things.
The most revealing part of the story was this line “the prices has not come down proportionately”. You just described succinctly why we might be headed for actual fascism. Seriously. Because my suspicion is your annoyance at this Thai restaurant was like 50% they went “family style” and 50% they raised prices. And what you discovered is why people hate hate hate even moderate price increases. You feel cheated. Even if you weren’t cheated. The restaurant may have seen their rent go up or had their suppliers raise prices and felt like they had no choice but to increase prices (doesn’t help they tried to obfuscate their price increase with this change to “family style”). And yet it still sucks to see that you have to pay more for the exact same thing you had like 6 months prior. So yeah, you inadvertently wrote the perfect “why Trump won” post.
Second and getting into the more “meat” of your article. I am part Indian. I bring this up to note that I absolutely was brought up in a communal eating culture where food is shared. So when I say this, I feel like I have some ground to stand on. Your husband’s insistence that you think about whether he wants some of the food you are ordering just for yourself is nuts. All of your posts seem to indicate your husband is a lovely man, a good partner and a good father. But I think this post is a good reminder no one is perfect. Because this food eating habit of your husband is not about communal eating, this seems to be some weird quirk with your husband. Again if this your husband’s worst flaw I’d say you lucked out. But in my book this is definitely a flaw.
I’ve hammed it up for the article, as it’s meant to be humorous! At this point in time he doesn’t care so much, but he was very anal about it when we first started dating.
Fair enough. Wasn't under the idea he was like "I demand you think of my needs when you get food". I don't want to give you that impression. But stand by claim this is at least little bit weird behavior.
This is actually sort of a jumping off point for a suggestion for a future post; you're theory as to why Reddit relationship advice posts have gone so negative (Think you've either written or tweeted about this). Because in reading this post, I immediately started thinking what the reddit advice comments would be. And I feel pretty confident a decent number of them would have been "You need to divorce him now! He clearly doesn't respect you. He is literally trying to steal from you! Run away, run away!"
My theory as to why relationship advice has gone so negative extreme is twofold. One, it's part of the phenomenon whereby social media encourages people to have "bold" hot takes. Measured responses to questions don't get engagement. Angry screeds get people's attention. So writing with too many exclamation points to break up with someone is a sure fire way to get "likes" and comments back. But I think second is that we've come to a point where perhaps some people, especially younger people have some unrealistic expectations for their romantic partners. I think the last 10-20 years there has been a lot of good writing and reckoning with the fact that too many relationships are too imbalanced whereby one partner (usually the guy) is not pulling their weight either with helping around the house, money or just genuinely being supportive of their partner (think you did a good job covering some of this in this post https://www.cartoonshateher.com/p/you-dont-like-women-you-like-boobs). But I wonder if that very useful reckoning has led to a lot of young people having unrealistic expectations for their partners that he/she be genuinely perfect. An expectation literally no one is capable of meeting.
Sort of half baked theory on my part. But again, why I though it could be a useful topic for a future post.
Yes, it’s one reason I don’t like reddit relationship advice, so much gets lost in the translation. I consider all of this “funny quirk that annoys me occasionally” not “I’m staying with my mother and bringing the kids”
I think this is true! there's a constantly mocked trend of people saying "my husband is great except for ..." and then giving some huge problem. But like - I get why people do that. Because reading an advice column literally the only thing I know about someone is their flaw or worst quality. So this is a futile attempt to concisely say "my partner has many good qualities and this is but a small part of their personality but I'd like help navigating it."
I think that everyone has one thing that reddit would call a horrible red flag and a reason for their partner to flee!
same! i come from a mediterranean family like her husband’s. whenever we go out, we order for ourselves but it’s always a given that if someone wants to try another persons dish, they can steal a bite, only sometimes asking permission. or the two people can exchange similar portions of their different dishes. my mom and i have literally traded plates, ate a little, then traded back. but i’ve never been told i couldn’t order what I wanted due to someone else’s preference.
CHH’s husband is definitely food Stalin. but there are worse flaws and as long as he only orders what CHH would really like, then it’s not that serious of a flaw.
He definitely keeps me in mind 😂
It's kind of funny that much like real communism, the idea of harmonious cooperation where everyone is happy to work together quickly broke down and required an authoritarian dictator to seize power and insure that dissenters are kept in line.
My family shares bites of food and drinks for sure, but I order what I want to order! My husband is kind of a germaphobe (or just doesn’t want to get sick) so does not like sharing like that so I make sure to at least offer him the first bite or sip before my sickly relatives jump in.
I would like to liken this to a Food "Free Market with a light-touch Welfare State" where your food is yours but you get to choose _just one_ person to have a bit of their food.
I think price increases are more aggravating when they're done like this. If a meal at your favourite restaurant goes from $20 to $23 then that sucks, but it's life and you know that costs are going up for everything, so you can sort of understand it. When they try to hide the cost increases behind a smokescreen of making the dishes smaller, expecting you to buy more of them, and then calling it "family style", now it feels like they're pissing on your leg and telling you it's rain.
My husband and parents are like this too. I always just get my plate of pasta to everyone’s consternation and ruin their pizza plans.
It's mostly just inflation. When inflation happens every place has two choices: raise prices or decrease portions.
I do think some places had ridiculously large portions in the past so it shouldn't *always* be prices that change. But I'm also a big eater so do find myself disappointed at some places, like the author.
I think the thing that baffles me is calling tapas-style family-style. Is this, like, an insane San Francisco thing? Like, in my mind:
Family style: entrées are meant to be shared, and each one will be _too big for one hungry adult_. This would be like what I'd expect at a Chinese restaurant with stir-fries or an Indian restaurant with curries. If we order one entrée per person we're taking home an entire day's worth of leftovers.
Tapas style: each plate is a cute little thing and we're going to have to order a gajillion of them. If they're more than appetizer place then the place is $$ (which is fine, but let's recognize what it is). The point of them being tiny is to experience a lot of variety.
What has radicalized me against these “tapas style that we call family style” places in the US is that each plate averages like $15-25 so I feel like I’m now paying $80-100 for the equivalent of an entree’s worth of food (plus the social pleasure of judging what is an appropriate amount of each dish to eat).
Yeah, either is fine but I've never heard of establishments confusing the two (never mind having it be a pervasive issue).
Not an SF thing, I don't think? I at least haven't noticed this conflation of family style vs tapas/small plates, but I will keep an eye out now lol
I'm sorry but, "let me try a bite of your exactly the same burrito" sounds demented
If that’s the craziest thing your 21-year-old boyfriend does, it’s probably a good thing.
It’s amusing to me that you clearly have a little bit of remorse about sharing this crazy thing your husband does and having him rightly torn to shreds by the comments.
I am very glad my wife is not a popular blogger lol. I lose arguments with just her I would not want to add a bunch of internet stans to her side!
It's for quality control.
I highlighted that part and sent it to my husband, thanking him for not being like that. Luckily we have pretty similar attitudes to food so this has never come up (i.e. he doesn't need bites of my burrito; I don't touch his carne asada fries. I get sips of any cocktail he orders and vice versa.)
I feel like this problem comes partially from an Americanisation of some (southern) European traditions. When portions are very small, they come with the assumption that you order them continuously! Pinxos, tapas, zakouskys, etc, you order a bunch first (everyone asks for a few they like, scattershot style) and when inspired or you run out of a popular option you just... Get some more. And it comes fast, since it's generally pre-prepared. This removes the coordination problem, the fomo problem, the hunger problem, and the over ordering / food waste problem. But in the US, I've felt like it's kind of taboo to order multiple rounds of things? Maybe it's because they want you cleared out of the table quick?
Yeah, potentially relevant here is that he is Greek so there could be a cultural difference. Although I am half Jewish, my family was raised in more or less a WASP type culture.
That being said, maybe his extreme take on food sharing is a bit of OCD mixed with the culture? Could he try to do "one each of the same thing" again and check if the feeling fits?
It's taboo in part because there is some real economic incentives driving eating behavior and how restaurants operate in the US vs other parts of the world. https://www.restaurantmanifesto.com/turning-tables/
You're observation about restaurants in parts of Europe operate in comparison to American restaurants operate has real evidence behind it. In US, there is a real pressure to get you and your group to order and eat as quickly as possible. In other parts of the world, it's much more common for diners to stick around for hours just chatting maybe ordering another dish if after like 45 minutes of hanging out you start getting a bit hungry again. The business of American restaurants literally would not allow you stay that long.
I’m a server - everywhere I’ve served, there has never been an instruction from management nor a desire from me to hurry ppl along.
In a restaurant that has a consistent fully booked reservation system, sure, but 95% of American restaurants will never be that.
On most nights, I’d never care if a group was there for 3 hours it’s just a non issue
I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, I’m just saying it’s not as ubiquitous as the comment made it seem
Really? It’s extremely common in my experience as a server. It’s not really driven by management as much as the fact that servers make our money by tips. In the 3 hours that a table was sitting there, I could have made more money. No one ever tells them to leave, but it definitely is not something that we want happening.
If you work in a restaurant where seating is not egalitarian, then sure. But where I’ve worked, either a) my section is almost never at true full capacity or b) the hots(ess) seats each server in order. So every server is getting the same amount of covers, and thus, general opportunity for tips
I’ve never worked somewhere where getting them out of the restaurant faster = more total covers, except perhaps on Mother’s Day lol
I acknowledge some (few) restaurants are at max capacity daily, but it’s not the typical experience.
Sure, but only if your restaurant is popular enough that those people were stopping someone else who would have ordered. Most restaurants are not popular enough for that to be the case outside of maybe the peak busy times of Friday/Saturday evenings
I actually think restaurants don't pressure people to leave at all in the US. It's our own cultural norms as restaurant customers that cause us to hustle. Hanging out for hours at a restaurant table is seen as "taking up the table" so we hustle ourselves out. People assume it inconveniences the restaurant, but if there's no line for tables and it's not closing time, it doesn't.
I feel like it's a little bit of both. It doesn't always happen, but I have definitely been in situations where they really want to take your menus as soon as you order something, and the check appears without being asked for. It probably doesn't help that everything closes so early these days, either...
If the server is making most of their money from tips as is usually the case, it does inconvenience them when you linger.
Only if there's actually a party to replace you for the table, though. If the restaurant is slow or the other tables are turning enough to prevent anyone from having to wait, it doesn't affect the tips at all.
I wonder if it is more of a problem at restaurants like the Thai one mentioned where they swapped over to the model? Certainly I've been to tapas restaurants in the US where they make sure to leave a menu because they plan on folks ordering more after the first round.
I've run into this at American Japanese restaurants that serve izakaya-style food (kushiyaki, shishamo, etc.) but take your order like you're doing a typical "one round of appetizers, then one main course per person" American dinner experience. Similarly to pintxos or tapas, these dishes are meant to be ordered continuously by a drinking group and served quickly. Trying to do it otherwise is jarring.
It doesn't help that they're squishing together a few Japanese concepts like "izakaya" and "ramen shop" into a single restaurant and then layering American sit-down service conventions on top of it. Is this a "lost in translation" situation or someone deciding that the model doesn't work here? I wish I knew. For what it's worth, I like the food! I just wish I could relax and order as I go, the way they're meant to be.
I get the “you signed up for this” and honestly, I love sharing food with the people I eat out with. However, the idea he gets pushed out of shape because you want to order something he doesn’t like as well is a bit bonkers. Then to read people order food you dont enjoy(pork and octopus) is even more rude.
Yeah I thought Mr CHH was overstepping some invisible line there.
I often order an entrée I know my wife will like (either by asking her or by knowing some of her favorites) and I like to do that to narrow down choices, as a tie breaker, or even so she can try two things she'll really like.
But if there was something on the menu I _really_ wanted to have, like, I never get to have that entrée, it's one of my favorites, but she won't eat it, I wouldn't let her preferences be a deal breaker. To me, that crosses the line between giving with generosity and being a people-pleaser.
Right? Especially if dining as a couple, the ability to each have a meal that *you* like, that the other may not, without having to cook two dinners, is a major feature!
Yes. I appreciate CHH’s honesty about her relationship and generally find her writing to be funny and intelligent and obviously I don’t actually know her or her husband, but… this is not the first time I’ve thought “wow, opposites attract. CHH is one of the most sensible people on the internet and… Mr. CHH is… not.”
I think we are both equally crazy but in very different ways. For example, there were years when I would cry every time he got into a car because I thought he was going to die in a car accident.
That's intense. It'll probably be back when you're kids get learners permits.
No, they're both a bit crazy. His PIP for her made it pretty obvious to me at least that they are both taking the good with the bad.
Yeah, I personally think a huge benefit of going out to eat is ordering something my husband doesn't like because I know he'll never cook it at home! When am I going to get to eat it if not when we're out?
I thought the same. Directionally I'm way more aligned with Mr CHH here but it feels like he's really pushing his advantage too far. If you're going to be a true food communist, then you aren't allowed to "not like" things on the menu (with the exception of allergens or maybe stuff that is extremely spicy). If you don't like what someone has ordered it's your loss, and if you're encouraging this system then you made your own bed.
OH MY GOD, NO. I told my husband early on that I would never be sharing my food, ever, and if he's one of those freaks who says he doesn't want fries and then proceeds to eat half of mine, we are breaking up INSTANTLY. I have, for some unfathomable reason, always been "the guy" in the scenario in relationships and dated men who pretend they don't actually love deep fried potatoes until I order the *exact amount of them that I personally want to eat*, and suddenly they are the French fry's biggest fan. I am also the world's pickiest eater and would simply lose my mind if there was seafood and mushrooms and lettuce based salad with goddamned fruit on it and people thought I should eat that on exchange for some of the thing I actually ordered and wanted for myself.
Okay, I might be a little nuts about that issue but I CANNOT FATHOM THIS REALITY. How do you survive this expectation?! 😂
I think he feels more strongly about it than I do! I can enjoy doing things the communist way, he cannot enjoy things the capitalist way.
I can see plenty of the potential perks in doing things the communist way, but not my food 😤
The domestic distinction between private property (food bought for cooking in the kitchen) and personal property (food bought at a restaurant).
And this proves why your choice of metaphor was so well-selected.
So you needed one of those, "My girlfriend isn't hungry " menu options, but gender inverted.
Exactly. I used to send my husband those memes every time I came across them and say he was the girlfriend in the scenario. He has since learned that he better just order his own damn fries. lol
I understand someone saying they aren't hungry enough to order a full portion for themselves and asking to have a piece if you're ordering them, but I don't understand why someone woild say they actually don't want any and then suddenly 180 when they arrive. Did they forget what they tasted like or something?
If you go out to an ordinary restaurant with a food communist, you should try ordering the *exact same thing* as them.
It makes their brains melt.
Oh my god I hate that. I'll change my order.
Ha! My wife would always order first, and I’d make sure to order something different. It was perfectly okay if she ordered something I didn’t like, though.
This is definitely mildly taboo in my family, since we’re moderate food communists… Food Trotskyists?
Food Norwegians.
What's very strange to me is that my wife and her family are all devout food capitalists just like CHH, but she still often does this strange dance with her own mother at restaurants where her mother asks what she's getting, often to order the same thing (to avoid FOMO if it looks better than what she ordered when it arrives), and my wife really tries to play coy and keep it to herself to prevent her doing it.
I've never managed to understand why. As ardent food capitalists, they were never going to share anyway, so it makes no difference. The most my wife has been able to offer as an explanation is that if her mother orders first she might get the last one before they run out (this has never happened).
Omg have always hated that! My parents thought I was crazy though we are all food communists lol
I would do this. My mom would get annoyed as hell. I am already ordering X why don't you order Y? Uh I like X? Then she would grumpily order Y :P I think it's just OCD tbh. Which now makes me wonder about all the communists...
i don’t mind sharing the food, or even very small portions (i actually prefer it), but the idea of communally deciding what is being ordered is where i draw the line!
It stresses me out so much, but at least my in-laws always advocate for me because they know how stressed out I am lol
It's kind of a bummer and unfair that eating out is a stressful experience for you! I understand Mr. CHH cares more but do you never get to have it your way? When you go out to eat with your parents does he also insist that they share food?
My dad is not a big food sharing person, but my mom actually prefers it his way! My parents are divorced so it depends on who we are with. Even with all these disagreements, I still love going to restaurants with him more than almost anything together so clearly it’s not that bad!
I too have a giant appetite and find sharing food extremely stressful. I don't want to be the greedy pig who takes too much, then I see someone else taking more, and that pisses me off, and I feel bad about being pissed off, then I just end up hungry and unhappy.
OTOH not trying each other's food is slightly odd. I am full on food capitalist but my husband and I will always offer each other a taste of our food as a "try something new" style mentality.
I also don't get the "I don't want much" performance. Clearly they really do, because when I've taken people at their word on this, they are clearly pissed off at me for being a greedy pig who's eaten too much. Is it a way of being polite that has escaped me due to my inability to understand unspoken social rules? Perhaps a normal person will explain on this thread.
I had also never heard of this kind of dining being called "family style" - it's always "small plates" or "sharing plate" in Londlhn.
My wife and I will definitely share food when we go out to eat. Especially if we're at a fancier restaurant, if one of us ordered something that we think is particularly tasty we absolutely want the other to at least try it and see if they like it.
I think what caught my eye was CCH's husband almost preemptively saying she should consider if he'd like to have a bite or two before ordering. She followed up my own post to note she was "hamming up" the story a bit. But I definitely said to myself "I don't think I'd ever tell my wife 'hey when you order something, make sure to remember I'd like a few bites'".
Yeah isn’t the whole point of eating out so your wife can order something you hate? It’s cooking at home where you have to take everyone’s feelings into account (especially the kids!)
For me, the point is to get food better than what I can cook, or to try things I don't know how to cook. But I don't think my wife eats anything I won't like, so it's probably reversed for me.
Only rarely do my husband and I do that, usually because I push because there are two things I equally want on the menu
my partner and I just like to order food we want but the other would also enjoy and then we try each other's food. we share an appetizer and/or dessert. best of all worlds, very little stress.
I would hate that. What if he eats more than you? What if you accidentally eat too much? Not for me!!!
ha ha ha we just swap a bite
The solution of course is to order so much you take a bunch home!
I would be on board for this my husband is not. He finds it embarrassing!
I can't understand that. More good food to eat later yes please
This was wild and stressful to read. - A woman who is referred to by her in-laws as "a good eater"
On a totally separate note I wish lazy susans were more common other than chinese places.
The Chinese really figured out the right way to do family style.
I am with someone that I love a lot, and it's true that in a good relationship, you make concessions for the other. I think overall the relationship that you describe is good, and the concessions that each person has made are fair. I think you guys have found a good way to balance the things that work well for each of you. That said, he's completely wrong about this and way over the line, so hopefully it is compensated for by his tolerance with your germ stuff, etc.. because he's CRAZY.
He is crazy but you would be correct that he deals with me being crazy just as often
Consider food, uh, social democracy: where everyone orders their own plate and only orders with themselves in mind, but bites are shared freely among the table if desired.
this is the way! this is how I grew up and it was great. best of both worlds. sometimes two people would switch plates if they both discovered they liked the other person's better. everyone was happy!
I honestly broke out in a cold sweat reading this. I will generally share a bite of my food if asked, but ordering with anyone but myself in mind is where I draw the line. If I'm making dinner for my family 6 out of 7 nights a week and taking into account their preferences and needs, then when I go out to eat I'm ordering what I want and eating the whole thing.
Well, to be fair I don’t cook dinner every night. He actually does a lot of the cooking so I can compromise.
“Early in our courtship, he warned me of his one major dealbreaker: I had to share my food with him. He told me about this the way someone might share that they have children from a previous marriage.” 😂
I’m definitely a food capitalist. The thought of other people sampling my food just bothers me, although I’ll make an occasional exception for my husband, or for my kids if we’ve agreed to split a dessert at a restaurant.