For 12 years, economics writer Noah Smith experienced no sexual attraction. Now at 43, he's attracted to women again--and ready to talk about what happened.
Loved this! I will say, not to be too harsh, I don’t really understand when people say they don’t think there’s a difference between non-sexual romance and friendship. Like, think about what married couples do, subtract sex, and you’re still left with mostly things one doesn’t do with one’s friends. Rings, anniversaries, sleeping in the same bed, sharing finances, changing at least one name (usually), non-sexual physical touch, calling one another terms they’d never call a friend, etc. The same goes for just dating, too, albeit to a slightly lesser extent. Couples aren’t having sex 24/7, and they aren’t acting like mere friends the rest of the time. And then there’s the psychological side that’s subjective, but pretty obvious to me; think about someone’s happy marriage and try to imagine that there’s nothing there but lust, or nothing there but trying to get back into bed. I have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that romance is impossible without sex, but maybe that’s just me.
I could not agree more strongly with Noah that “asexual romantic” and “platonic” are synonyms. I’ll have to think more about this, but do you think “sharing finances”, for example, is “romantic”?
To me, asexual romantic would be distinct from platonic bc I would assume it means you want to cuddle. I have no interest in cuddling or really even touching my platonic friends, other than for a greeting/parting hug at most. So I picture asexual romantic to mean that you would have physical affection but not sex. Almost like what you would have with your small children, or a pet. I suppose maybe some people cuddle with platonic friends, but I doubt that's very common, and seems weird to me personally.
Vanishingly few "platonic" have children together but lots of "asexual romantic" have children together. You'd probably need to come up with a pretty good explanation for why they're synonymous given that.
I will admit that this debate is just semantics. I love thinking about semantics, but it might not be terribly productive :) I would argue that there is nothing particularly “romantic” about having children and that an “asexual child rearing partnership” is more “platonic” than it is “romantic”.
Always happy to hear rebuttals. I don’t think there’s anything romantic about sharing finances in itself, rather it’s something you only do with a romantic partner and not a friend, so there is clearly a difference between the two. So it’s about highlighting the distinction between a partner and a friend, not inner experiences. That’s the subjective part that I think is difficult to argue at best, without having any psychics around to compare people’s inward emotions. (Apparently cults often share members’ finances, though, so there’s that exception!)
I would say that the differences you cite between a “typical platonic friendship” and a “typical marriage” are evidence that the typical married couple has a “legal, economic, and logistical partnership” not that they have “romance”. But I hope they have romance, too, if they want it! But again, I think this is just semantics.
As a fan of both podcasts and CHH I enjoyed this! If you’re staying in the neoliberal expanded universe, I’d love to hear a future episode with Matthew Yglesias about parenting.
I do think CHH is right that younger people socialize less, but she exaggerates it, possibly because the young people she interacts with online are heavily self-selected to be socially anxious or on the spectrum. IRL meets and hook ups still happen for many young people.
I'm kind of thinking you're going to cause a measurable drop in the national GDP.
I'm assuming you were around Yankees fans during the 2004 ALCS. It all worked out great in the end, says this Red Sox fan, but one thing that was amazing about the experience is that the games seem to run really late, and the drama was compelling. So the next day, everyone was really dragging. People who didn't follow sports had stayed up after midnight. Affected the economy.
Is anyone actually working right now, or is everyone listening? If the former, why?
I'm only telling you this story so you can think in different imitations, but the 2003 American League Championship Series was also between the New York Yankees and the Boston Red Sox. In the midst of it, I was at a PTA fundraiser at the home of Sen. Ted Kennedy (whose granddaughter was in my son's class). and the guest speaker was Sen. H. Clinton. Somehow I ended up in a stairwell conversation with the two senators and another PTA dad, talking about Ukraine, and the ALCS. The senators were surprisingly well informed on the latter. And surprisingly interested. Some smack was talked.
[She's also pretty Charley-illiterate, since I'm newly in her flock. I never intentionally insult people on the internet. My comments are either compliments or silly stories from my life. I say mean shit about what people write for a living; I don't need to do it as a hobby!]
He told me what it was, and it’s not embarrassing at all, but the reason he didn’t get into details is that he didn’t want to look like he was endorsing any particular pharmaceutical for this use.
I see why Noah is popular with the ladies -- he comes across as very laid-back and funny, as well as smart. He doesn't seem to take himself too seriously.
Also, I’d recommend CHH hang some blankets in her recording room to dampen the acoustics. Unironically I’ve heard some podcasters say they record in closets or pillow forts, but you don’t have to go that far.
So curious what everyone thinks about Noah’s point that women compete with each other in having the highest paid (or highest status) husband. I reacted like CHH to that and was like “I’ve never even thought about that!” But maybe I’ve just internalized it?
I don't think this is true at all. Sounds more like the type of thing a guy would be paranoid about or come up with...worrying he can't out-status his wife's friend's husbands. Or maybe something that happens in ultra-competive and insular social environments, like maybe if everyone you know is in NYC and married to a finance bro or something.
My wife is definitely not like this. She makes substantially more money than I do, and I'm pretty sure her brother-in-law does as well, but it's not a thing between and her sister, or with her female friends. We have at least one friend couple where the wife is the top earner.
Psyched for a CHH podcast to really exist. Any chance there is a standard RSS feed for it? Couldn't find it on my normal podcasting app for some reason.
Also, the transcript shows Noah calling you "Cartoons tater" which I think I will start calling you now.
Loved this! I will say, not to be too harsh, I don’t really understand when people say they don’t think there’s a difference between non-sexual romance and friendship. Like, think about what married couples do, subtract sex, and you’re still left with mostly things one doesn’t do with one’s friends. Rings, anniversaries, sleeping in the same bed, sharing finances, changing at least one name (usually), non-sexual physical touch, calling one another terms they’d never call a friend, etc. The same goes for just dating, too, albeit to a slightly lesser extent. Couples aren’t having sex 24/7, and they aren’t acting like mere friends the rest of the time. And then there’s the psychological side that’s subjective, but pretty obvious to me; think about someone’s happy marriage and try to imagine that there’s nothing there but lust, or nothing there but trying to get back into bed. I have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that romance is impossible without sex, but maybe that’s just me.
Plus, there's plenty of older couples that remain together and in love when they have aged past sex.
If I acted the way I do around my wife when we're just hanging out with platonic friends, I think they would get weirded out.
I could not agree more strongly with Noah that “asexual romantic” and “platonic” are synonyms. I’ll have to think more about this, but do you think “sharing finances”, for example, is “romantic”?
To me, asexual romantic would be distinct from platonic bc I would assume it means you want to cuddle. I have no interest in cuddling or really even touching my platonic friends, other than for a greeting/parting hug at most. So I picture asexual romantic to mean that you would have physical affection but not sex. Almost like what you would have with your small children, or a pet. I suppose maybe some people cuddle with platonic friends, but I doubt that's very common, and seems weird to me personally.
Vanishingly few "platonic" have children together but lots of "asexual romantic" have children together. You'd probably need to come up with a pretty good explanation for why they're synonymous given that.
I will admit that this debate is just semantics. I love thinking about semantics, but it might not be terribly productive :) I would argue that there is nothing particularly “romantic” about having children and that an “asexual child rearing partnership” is more “platonic” than it is “romantic”.
Always happy to hear rebuttals. I don’t think there’s anything romantic about sharing finances in itself, rather it’s something you only do with a romantic partner and not a friend, so there is clearly a difference between the two. So it’s about highlighting the distinction between a partner and a friend, not inner experiences. That’s the subjective part that I think is difficult to argue at best, without having any psychics around to compare people’s inward emotions. (Apparently cults often share members’ finances, though, so there’s that exception!)
I would say that the differences you cite between a “typical platonic friendship” and a “typical marriage” are evidence that the typical married couple has a “legal, economic, and logistical partnership” not that they have “romance”. But I hope they have romance, too, if they want it! But again, I think this is just semantics.
Liberal Joe Rogan Experience
Unironically true
On behalf of women enjoyers everywhere, Mr. Smith - welcome home.
As a fan of both podcasts and CHH I enjoyed this! If you’re staying in the neoliberal expanded universe, I’d love to hear a future episode with Matthew Yglesias about parenting.
I do think CHH is right that younger people socialize less, but she exaggerates it, possibly because the young people she interacts with online are heavily self-selected to be socially anxious or on the spectrum. IRL meets and hook ups still happen for many young people.
I actually specifically want to do this. I haven’t reached out to him yet.
Yes please!!! The ideal podcast parenting duo
This turned out to be correct.
This was an unexpected bonus. I hope there are more to come.
Many more to come, my brother is the next one
Wait, did you just call the vagina, “the main place”? You lapse into this Trump impression so smoothly that it just adds to the ridiculousness
Lmao I think I was kind of doing Trump there
Oh you definitely were, it’s still making me chuckle. “Hey let’s put the kids to bed and have sex in the main place”
I'm kind of thinking you're going to cause a measurable drop in the national GDP.
I'm assuming you were around Yankees fans during the 2004 ALCS. It all worked out great in the end, says this Red Sox fan, but one thing that was amazing about the experience is that the games seem to run really late, and the drama was compelling. So the next day, everyone was really dragging. People who didn't follow sports had stayed up after midnight. Affected the economy.
Is anyone actually working right now, or is everyone listening? If the former, why?
I’m sorry what? Lol. Admittedly I don’t follow sports
I'm only telling you this story so you can think in different imitations, but the 2003 American League Championship Series was also between the New York Yankees and the Boston Red Sox. In the midst of it, I was at a PTA fundraiser at the home of Sen. Ted Kennedy (whose granddaughter was in my son's class). and the guest speaker was Sen. H. Clinton. Somehow I ended up in a stairwell conversation with the two senators and another PTA dad, talking about Ukraine, and the ALCS. The senators were surprisingly well informed on the latter. And surprisingly interested. Some smack was talked.
Your podcasts are and will continue to be so great, people are going to skip working at their jobs.
That was a very sweet comment and I knew reading it that CHH would have no idea if that was a compliment or not lol. She is very sports illiterate
[She's also pretty Charley-illiterate, since I'm newly in her flock. I never intentionally insult people on the internet. My comments are either compliments or silly stories from my life. I say mean shit about what people write for a living; I don't need to do it as a hobby!]
Ohh! AWWW ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
How embarrassing must that treatment be if Noah won't talk about it after everything else he's disclosed on the pod.
He told me what it was, and it’s not embarrassing at all, but the reason he didn’t get into details is that he didn’t want to look like he was endorsing any particular pharmaceutical for this use.
This feels misguided... if he found something that worked and could help people, I think he should share!
I'm dying to know what it is, I've been struggling with it for a long time and this is Noah dangling a solution like a carrot 🤣
great initial guest!
I see why Noah is popular with the ladies -- he comes across as very laid-back and funny, as well as smart. He doesn't seem to take himself too seriously.
As a woman: he also has a sexy voice! I wasn't expecting that.
Noah's voice was much better than I imagined!
Interesting. This ginnie pig says work on the sound. You're too low and Noah too loud. Balance is needed.
Happy to help!
Also, I’d recommend CHH hang some blankets in her recording room to dampen the acoustics. Unironically I’ve heard some podcasters say they record in closets or pillow forts, but you don’t have to go that far.
Pillow forts are underrated!
“You get really mad and listen to Nirvana.”
Also recommend Pixies “Doolittle”.
So curious what everyone thinks about Noah’s point that women compete with each other in having the highest paid (or highest status) husband. I reacted like CHH to that and was like “I’ve never even thought about that!” But maybe I’ve just internalized it?
I don't think this is true at all. Sounds more like the type of thing a guy would be paranoid about or come up with...worrying he can't out-status his wife's friend's husbands. Or maybe something that happens in ultra-competive and insular social environments, like maybe if everyone you know is in NYC and married to a finance bro or something.
My wife is definitely not like this. She makes substantially more money than I do, and I'm pretty sure her brother-in-law does as well, but it's not a thing between and her sister, or with her female friends. We have at least one friend couple where the wife is the top earner.
Yeah I had to sit and try hard to remember what my friends husbands even do, I don’t feel like it’s something I ever have thought about.
Psyched for a CHH podcast to really exist. Any chance there is a standard RSS feed for it? Couldn't find it on my normal podcasting app for some reason.
If you click “listen via” you can get a feed connected to your podcast app.
Thank you very much! I hate the Substack listening experience so strongly I never noticed that!
Are they all gonna be on the Substack app? It’s got some issues with podcasts compared with Apple Podcasts or spotify
It’s on Spotify too!