Conversations with the Incel-Adjacent: Part 1
I spoke with people who consider themselves involuntarily celibate, but not hateful. Listen to what they have to say.
Welcome to the CHH Conversations series- I’m aiming to do one a week, detailing a person (or people) who belong to an interesting group which is either part of the current zeitgeist, typically unheard, or just something I find super interesting. Note that my interviewing someone doesn’t mean I agree with them or approve of what they say—in fact, I may strongly disagree with many of the people I interview! I do, however, appreciate that anyone gave me any amount of their time, so be nice.
In this piece, everyone described themselves and we used those prompts to generate DALLE images of them.
In this conversation, I reached out to people (I was open to all genders, orientations, etc. but most respondents were straight men) who considered themselves “incel adjacent.” This means they are not necessarily virgins or never had partners, but they are struggling to get dates or meet people and are generally “involuntarily celibate” in the literal sense, as opposed to “incels” who are usually associated with a specific Internet subculture that tends toward misogyny. This interview series excludes people who regularly date but can’t find a long term relationship; some degree of romantic isolation is required.
In the very near future, I will be doing a piece specifically centered around women struggling to find long-term relationships.
The folks in this piece all openly and happily bared their souls to me, treated me with respect and politeness, and I encourage anyone reading to treat them with some degree of compassion, even if they say things you disagree with.
John, 28, former software engineer studying to transition to wealth management
On his dating history:
I’ve only had 1 relationship in my life, but that was back as a high schooler, and it wasn‘t very serious, so it broke off pretty quick. I went through college all the way through grad school and couldn’t (or wouldn’t) secure even 1 romantic relationship in a school that had a 3:2 women:men ratio. That’s not a sign of lifelong failure, but I think it raises some questions about what’s up. My program wasn’t arduous—I had plenty of free time.
On his ideal partner and relationship:
My ideal romantic situation is just a lot of physical contact and compliment showering, but ideally in quiet settings. An ideal relationship would have no money issues, complete trust, and an overall positive vibe where we work together to make things happen and support each other along the way. But also: shared hobbies.
Of course, there’s also the physical characteristics: I’m just as vain on looks as the next guy, and since I do my utmost to keep myself as healthy and muscular as possible, I’d hope the same for my partner: that she’d be skinny and willing to work out with me, and I with her. I don’t actually think my expectations are what is stopping me. I just can’t flirt with women well. People think I’m aromantic or something, but I’m dispassionate a lot when not on stimulant medication (I have narcolepsy, which actually makes my dating life much more complicated than it seems at first glance, because I don’t want to go out, as I’ll fall asleep).
And I’m relationship-pilled or the “guy trying to find a wife”, btw. I’m much the same in the relationship department on needing an emotional connection. On the days when we aren’t feeling flirty, I always ask myself when I do have the occasional date with a woman I meet: could I stand being in her presence day in, day out? If the answer isn’t close to an unequivocal yes, then maybe we’re not meant to be, even if she’s a 10/10 stunning beauty.
On his ability to make non-romantic social connections:
I can make friends, but if one was to analyze the success of friendship circles by “how often do your friends text you back, ask you to hang out, things like that?”, the answer is 0%. However, when I happen to encounter people, they aren’t repulsed by my presence and treat me like a long-lost brother. This is for both men and women.
On being a single gym bro, physical attractiveness and leagues:
I found dating apps to be distressing because here’s the thing: I used to have pics of myself when I was skinny and still had hair, but nobody swiped right on me. Then I got muscular (had lost my hair by then), and WHOA, I got likes all of a sudden, but not from women I found physically attractive. It just showed to me that to get the woman I found attractive on a dating app, I have to be very physically attractive, and I’m not anywhere close to a top man. But, it is what it is. At this point, I focus on the job hunt, getting even more muscular (not via steroids, just by getting stronger, all that fun bodybuilding stuff), and getting enough sleep every day.
Some people have asked me why I don’t ask out the gym girls if I’m such a gym loving man. I just don’t because I’m not there to bother them. They want to workout, not be hit on. My interpretation, at least.
Another digression: physical attractiveness is my #1 factor in a woman. You could give me a woman that is 10/10 personality, knows all my likes and dislikes and all those intimate details, but if she’s not physically attractive, it won’t work out long-term. Conversely, if she was 10/10 on looks but 1/10 on personality (or she smokes/vapes/uses recreational drugs), that can turn her into a 1/10 in my eyes instantly. Not long-term relationship material. That’s also why I never used Tinder: I couldn’t sort out women that smoked marijuana / vaped.
On why he’s struggling:
I think the biggest obstacle in any long-term relationship, even if you were a matchmaker yourself, was my narcolepsy. It basically makes me want to be a bed potato, even on the weekends. There’s no cure for the condition. On the one hand, you save a lot of money living with me, but on the other, there’s no adventurous spirit because I just yawn and fall asleep often. And so, here’s where my internal bias comes along, and may or may not be supported by evidence: I don’t think most women that I’d be attracted to want a disabled boyfriend. They probably think they’d end up being my nanny or something like that, so it’s understandable. Or maybe they just don’t date disabled folks. Could be anything.
Olivia, 30, Recent PhD Grad
On her dating history:
I am 30 years old and I still have never had a boyfriend, and this is not my choice. I’ve developed this whole complex about it where I feel that men must hate me, that I’m not what they are looking for…in terms of looks, personality, probably both I guess.
On her current dating situation:
I have only made it to more than one date with just two guys. I’ve used dating apps and even professional matchmakers, but I am done. I either dismiss the guy because I find something I don’t like, and/or off-putting that it repels me or when it is someone I’d consider seeing again, I never seem to hear from him again and I’m left wondering what I did wrong. I wanted to meet someone organically SO badly, I feel that’s the only way for me to ever feel comfortable enough with someone to date them, but when I’ve swallowed y pride and tried to approach guys I’ve known IRL, they reject me. I’m not really a traditionally “feminine”/”bubbly”/”flirty” personality, I’m a little more serious.
On her ideal partner:
I will admit, I am selective, and most men are just not appealing to me. I am selective because I’m an unusual person. I just want someone who is like me, but men who are similar to me all seem to be taken. For example of what makes me “unusual” I do have my PhD, which is something that 99% of people do not have, of course. It’s not like I would only consider a man who also has a PhD. But I am looking for someone with a similar education and intelligence level, that is probably the most important thing to me along with physical attraction. But it seems that all the high-achieving, decently attractive, socially/emotionally “normal” men are always taken. Guys like that have their choice of women and it’s obviously not me.
It hurts so much because I think that I am someone with a lot of great, positive qualities. I am kind, and interesting, and I love to have fun. I’m adventurous and will try anything once. I have many hobbies, interests, passions. But most men don’t look twice at me or give me the time of day.
On standards and leagues:
I know men love to accuse women of dismissing any guy who isn’t 6ft with a 6 figure salary. But I couldn’t give less of a crap about those two statistics! (And I am almost 6 feet tall!) I don’t care if he’s not a 9 or 10 in terms of attractiveness! I don’t want a guy who is, anyway!
I do think the criticism is warranted sometimes. For example, some shorter women say they don’t like men under 6ft. Just…why? I don’t get it, and I don’t think it’s fair of those women to be like that. Even I, a tall woman, think that height is an arbitrary characteristic and doesn’t necessarily contribute to a man’s attractiveness (not to mention, it has no bearing on who they are as a person!) So, in cases like that, I actually do think that SOME women can be extremely shallow about certain things (height, income, etc.) I also don’t think it’s fair that almost every woman loves doctors, lawyers, Ivy leaguers, etc. I myself would prefer a man of that education level, but only because like I said, I myself have a similar level of accomplishment and I want someone who is like me!
I think my selectiveness stems from my being an atypical person myself. I think that women who are more average/typical (which is NOT A BAD THING! And I’m not talking about average looks/physical appearance but more in terms of intelligence, accomplishments, etc.) kind of have no right to be so selective.That being said, I also think that men really need to work on making themselves more attractive to women. I mean this both from a superficial standpoint (grooming, hygiene, clothes, fitness, etc.) as well as working on their social/emotional skills.
Will, 34, Senior Researcher for a Major Media Company
On his current dating situation:
Modern dating is so oriented around the apps, and I don’t get many matches. I don’t flourish in that economy, I think for three primary reasons:
Looks. I’m not terribly great looking, and have been directly told this throughout my life. To be clear: this is not a “hurr hurr women be shallow” complaint. But the intrinsic nature of these apps puts looks at the forefront for both men and women, whereas appearance is less central in real life (where vibes also play a factor) or in other online avenues (I actually got a few dates/relationships via Tumblr in the early 2010s, I think because more of my personality was showcased).
Trying to boil down my personality within these apps. That’s very difficult to do, especially since I tend to emphasize different aspects of myself depending upon whom I’m talking to. I also feel like most folks on these apps (especially Tinder) write wry, detached, semi-ironic profiles, whereas I tend to be really earnest about these topics.
Trying to anticipate how the woman wants to proceed when I do get a match. I feel like women have one of two approaches to these apps, and it’s a 50/50 shot as to which you get. It’s either: they want to get off the app as soon as possible, favoring a brief bit of witty banter that leads to a solid invite, or, they want to talk for 1-2 weeks to get a better sense of you. It’s pretty much up to you to divine which she wants and guess correctly. If you guess incorrectly, the conversation dies.
On why he’s struggling:
When it comes to meeting women in-person, the most natural avenue is work, but that feels very risky. I don’t really fear a “hello, human resources?!” situation, but the idea I might be the reason a woman feels uncomfortable at work/work gatherings makes me genuinely sad.
I should also note I feel like I don’t have much “rizz,” as the kids say. I shit on my looks earlier, but I’m aware that men who look worse than me get dates/romantic attention. But they generally have a sexual (not just personal) charisma that I inherently lack. When inquiring a female friend about this, she straight up told me “you have zero sexual charisma.”
Taking all that into account, it becomes easy to just…sit back, accept defeat, and not even try. I haven’t actively used the apps in several months now. It also becomes easy to say “I shouldn’t try until I get [insert thing] straightened out.” Which is why—and I’m not blowing smoke up your ass, I really mean this—your recent comments on the fallaciousness of this philosophy resonated deeply with me, and made me reassess this pattern of thinking.
On his ideal partner:
Personality: The Cerberus of necessary traits are humor, intelligence, and empathy. If you manage a spirited balance of those three, then man, you've got a fast track to my heart.
Looks: Reasonably attractive. I don't have a "type," and I don't understand men who do. I don't get the whole "I go crazy for blondes, dude" or "I want a girl with big naturalz" or any of that. I've been physically attracted to a variety of very different women in my life, so I hesitate to be more specific than "reasonably attractive." I'm not the most attractive of men, so I'm not some weirdo who requires a Sydney Sweeney type to fall head over heels for me. But like most folks, I also can't see myself swooning over a bridge troll, even if she embodies my desired personality traits.
Age: 25-36. That’s the range I have on my dating apps. I'm 34. Dunno if it's shallow, but I admit, I'm not terribly interested in any women more than 2-3 years older than me. Similarly, I don't have any interest in anyone >10 years younger than me. I feel like age 25-26 is when I became a fully baked adult. Dating someone younger than that would feel supremely weird.
On his ideal relationship:
I'm looking for a partner. I feel like a lot of men are looking either for a woman to take care of them (a mommy), or a woman they can conquer. Both of those scare me; I don't need/want to be 100% taken care of, nor do I want a woman entirely dependent upon me. My dream is to have a relationship with a woman I trust, with whom I feel completely comfortable. A beautiful, balanced dynamic where she trusts me to take the lead with certain things, and I trust her to take the lead with certain things. Genuinely, a partner. I almost get emotional just typing this, because to me, that's that's the ideal: a partner you adore, with whom you're facing down this scary, uncertain, exciting thing called "life."
On what he wants people to know about folks who are single and struggling to meet someone:
“Man who struggles romantically” doesn’t always (or even mostly) equate to being a friendless weirdo who spends his Friday nights peering over a tower of empty Red Bull cans while playing Counter Strike and gooning.
I’m not embittered or angry toward women. I think there’s a stereotype that men in my position uniformly deal with this by harboring resentment toward women. Certainly, many do. But I believe ~80% of this is completely on me/my issues, and that the other 20% is mostly systemic/societal issues. I do feel frustrated and sad, but those emotions manifest themselves in me wondering if I’m romantically defective or a broken toy.
Struggling romantically doesn’t mean you’re socially maladjusted or totally lonely. I was popular enough in high school to be voted “person you’d most want as a friend.” I made lifelong friends in college, too. My workplace literally plans karaoke nights based upon if/when I can attend. I would describe my social life from 2004 until 2020 as being “robust” (however, it’s been more anemic since the pandemic and never fully bounced back; plus, making new friends in your mid-30s is already difficult).
On why the apps suck:
I think you can draw a parallel to Netflix/streaming apps vs. Blockbuster. Today, people will literally spend an hour picking the perfect title that fits their already existing tastes, because they have so many options. But during the Blockbuster era, people would spend 15-20 minutes, and then choose their cinematic “date” for the night. Sometimes, the movie might not even be one that’s their usual “type,” but it caught their eye and they vibed with it.
I think the same is true of dating. Just one example: while tall men have always been considered attractive (understandable), I never, ever heard about women drawing hard lines with regards to height until the rise of dating apps. Now it’s so commonplace, it’s impossible to avoid seeing regularly if you’re a man.
On how this all makes him feel:
I feel like I really can’t talk about my feelings of sadness/romantic loneliness, outside of 1-2 close friends. I could never do so publicly. Women want a man who’s romantically desired (understandable), so me coming out and saying “I’m romantically undesired” just serves to make me even more unattractive. And the “support” you’d get from men online often has a distinctly misogynistic quality. I wish I could talk about this more. I wish I could get honest feedback about what’s “wrong” with me.
I just want to be able to love someone. That’s all, man. I have so much love to give. As a kid, I never, ever dreamt that finding someone would be this hard.
I was a little worried when I subscribed, just to find that the first e-mail in my inbox was a Trump impression. But this one was great, definitely tamped down those worries. It's interesting to hear people's romantic troubles in their own words.
There's an interesting bit of synergy to some of the statements here. Will's comment on how easy it is to just give up jives with Olivia's comment on how men really need to work to improve themselves, while both of those link up to John's comments on becoming a gym-bro. Men really would benefit from improving themselves, but it isn't really fair to ask that of them when that self improvement bears minimal results. Women need to meet them halfway, otherwise what is the point of spending huge amounts of time and energy improving yourself?
On a vaguely related note, I think the most important things which dating apps have lost are persistence and feedback. Women can't see how men have improved, just how they look today. Which means that they can't effectively encourage self-improvement. Meanwhile, when people are rejected on dating apps, it results in literally zero communication with the opposite sex. Which makes it very difficult to figure out what you're doing wrong, and how to get past that barrier. Not to say that either of these were perfectly solved, pre-app, but the apps certainly aren't contributing in a positive direction.
In the realm of recent graduate job-hunting I've noticed two types of unlucky people. There are unlucky people who are in social circles containing some people who were luckier than them; they haven't been able to land a decent job yet, but have friends who had. Then there are unlucky people in social circles exclusively containing other unlucky unemployed people. Rather predictably, I notice that the first sort of unlucky person tends to have a shittier time of it for a little bit but eventually tends to catch their break and get a decent job, while the second sort of unlucky person distances themselves from friends and acquaintances who did better....and stays unlucky.
Can't help but feel that something very similar is at play with people romantically/sexually unlucky.