So, a fashion magazine writer who really wants to write about politics in the fashion magazine. So Andi grew up to be the editorial staff of Teen Vogue?
Oh, but obviously Lana is married to an Asian guy named Jong. Her mother-in-law keeps giving her traditional dresses for birthdays, and she's learned to love the fashion. It's not cultural appropriation, it's making your mother-in-law happy.
See, I was thinking Lana Jong has a Dutch father who was a textile trader and an American mother who is a buyer for a NYC department store, they met and lived in Hong Kong. But after the Chinese Revolution, they moved back to NYC but never gave up their household penchant for Asian aesthetics. Little Lana grows up speaking English in a privileged cosmopolitan household that takes the business side of fashion very seriously. Lana never married and has no interest in it.
LMAO YES. I was going to have her lore be "She married an Asian guy, they got divorced, she never got over it and now does all this out of her sick obsession with her ex" but this is more wholesome
Totally agree! If I can quote my Letterboxd review of the film:
“There's a plot device in some comedies that I have decided to call "You Have the Wrong Problem." This is when the protagonist isn't getting what they want out of their job, but the job they have isn't menial or entry-level, it's a hard job to get with a very specific set of duties that just don't include what the protagonist wants to be doing. The first scene of this movie is Kate Hudson, who has her own column in a fashion magazine, complaining that in her job she doesn't get to write about the plight of the people of Tajikstan. This is the wrong problem for a fashion columnist to have, because to get that extremely exclusive job that thousands of people would kill to have, you would have had to jump through a million hoops and develop your skills and connections to a very high level, and it's not conceivable that you could have done all that while holding the illusion that at some point they were going to let you write about Tajikstan. So the job, which was supposed to humanize her—don't we all feel dissatisfied with our jobs?—instead makes her seem incoherent and ungrateful.”
That's a great way of putting it. I feel like a lot of movies from the 90s/early 2000s had this, because we were still coming off the Gen X theme of "I don't wanna work for the MAN, man!" but without any empathy or social consciousness to go along with it. That's what I noticed watching Reality Bites recently. What, exactly, is Ethan Hawke's problem? He thinks he's too good for a job like Ben Stiller's, but it's not like he's doing something more interesting instead. It's just uncool to care about stuff, I guess, so he's the coolest. But I feel like in a post 9/11 world, not caring is very uncool, because it codes as having so much privilege you can afford not to care.
Yeah and there’s also a lack of curiosity about what these jobs entail. Obviously anyone could be a fashion columnist! Spitting out 800 words about shoes twice a month? What could be easier?
That movie is much better because it treats fashion as an interesting topic Andie is snottily looking down on, whereas this one is just snottily looking down on it.
Yes! I feel like fashion was treated with a lot more respect in devil wears Prada, which is of course to be expected as it’s a fashion movie, but still
I just made (and then deleted) a comment about this comparison! Evil fashionista antagonists must have been a 2000s thing. The name Andi/Andy probably hit the right balance of seriousness, style/attractiveness, and youth for the time, I think it was a UMC name then.
these early 2000s romcoms also convinced me the working world was going to be so much more glam than it is, even as a writer. sitting in my little H&M outfit in a sea of empty beige cubicles wondering where all the hot available men are (I sat next to HR and worked in comms, the like 4 men there were either gay or old lol). but this movie remains one of my favorite to rewatch when I have a hangover!
When I was younger there were always articles/advice about how to take your outfit from day to evening…I work from home now, but I did work in a big city for ten years, I literally never needed an outfit to go from “day to evening” even if I got a drink with colleagues my office clothes were just fine!
That reminds me of how LL Bean used to have actual quality real wool separates, herringbone skirts and trousers, and called them "weekend" wear. I always wondered what woman dressed down for the weekend by putting on a herringbone wool skirt.
Please, can I go back in time and buy all the clothes I can't get anymore?
omg yes! I was so convinced this would be a huge part of my adult life. instead me and my little business casual outfit just went next door to a falling-down bar called the Whiskey Priest with my coworkers and it was all fine.
This (and the subsequent conversation) feels like the female equivalent of John Mulaney’s, “As a kid, I thought quicksand was going to be more of an issue than it’s turned out to be in adult life.”
Other things that movies/tv shows convinced me of when I was young
- Offices are located disproportionately in "hip" loft spaces converted from warehouses. Yeah real life not so much.
- Office romances are very common and you can totally expect to find a long term relationship through someone at the office. Fun fact, before I met my wife, I dated and was briefly engaged to someone I met at the office. So in fact this actually turned out to be correct for me!
- You'll totally have lots of time for extended lunch breaks and long chats with office friends. I definitely have on occasion been able to take longer lunches and definitely have had plenty of friendly chats in the office with colleagues (See above regarding dating), but yeah the kind of lunch break/chats that happen in the office in this movie or tv shows/movies in general? Not so much*.
* I gotta say, I watched "Office Space" for the first time in mid 20s. Definitely enjoyed the movie and definitely had some great insights (the inanity of how much of your job involves stuff like making sure you're using the new cover letter template, the cold calculated way companies can just let you go, the frustration with dealing with printers/fax machines/computers that just stop working and thereby wasting your day, stuck in traffic and watching cars go faster in another lane only for that lane to stop when you merge into it etc.). But I gotta say, my takeaway was kind of "Are we really sure this is some terrible place to work?" White collar job that pays probably reasonably well to afford a decent apartment, can just go to a sit down breakfast like 30 minutes after arriving to work (like seriously what?!), have some decent work friends you can chat with, not too much apparently physical exertion. Honestly, this office seems pretty decent to work at.
yes to all of this! especially the hip offices (I have never worked in one lol, although I worked in finance and insurance until I started working for myself which are deeply unhip) and also all the sit-down breakfasts on a weekday morning! like I can't think of a working adult who regularly has time for that hahah.
I feel like the movie "Pleasantville" kind has fun with that movie/tv show trope of the big family breakfast. Think correctly pointing out that the idea of family all sitting around a table having pancakes, eggs, cereal and like seven other items has basically always been wildly unrealistic and a figment of TV imagination.
I’m with you, ~10 year age gaps in relationships aren’t creepy but do need to be acknowledged! My ex was 14 years older than me (I was in my early 20s and he in his late 30s) and it was very much A Thing. We were in quite different stages of life in so many ways.
I kind of wonder if the screenwriter was in a weird cultural space between "woke enough that they're upset Jane stopped publication" and "not woke enough to avoid having a character in basically yellowface."
I always find it amusing when people say “checks notes” because I like to imagine them actually checking their notes. Like, if you actually had to grab your notebook and flip a few pages to remember Benjamin’s scheme.
If you want a movie without a problematic age gap, try Videodrome! James Woods was actually a couple years younger than Debbie Harry aka Blondie, who played his love interest. Unfortunately the age gap is the only NOT-disturbing thing about the movie, which reminded me what people mean when they say "David Cronenberg body horror shit."
Haha I just can't resist the phrase "problematic age gap" and today I wanted to shoehorn in a mention of this incredibly fucked up movie I watched last night. Plus I always check the IMDb for cast ages and was genuinely surprised to see an inverted age gap in this flick. Probably due to James Woods looking rough hewn and well dressed for a 36yo, and Debbie Harry / Blondie looking insanely glam and flawless at 38.
You should write about When Harry Met Sally too! Be interested in your take. I watched it relatively recently and was shocked at how good it was given that I have not historically been a big rom com guy—just a really tight script (not to be an Old Man, but it feels like they don’t write them like that anymore.)
I actually just read Fear of Flying, so I wanted to hop in to note: Erica Jong’s last name comes from her ex-husband, Allan Jong, who (if the fictionalized version of him in Fear of Flying is accurate), was of Chinese descent. Which just raises further questions about Lana!
I wonder when they’ll make Gen Z romcoms about beauty and fashion influencers who just want to make political content all day but their audience gets angry and brand sponsorships leave everytime they do.
So my first thought reading this post was "Is this movie that has the absolutely random shot of Terry Bradshaw's butt in the kitchen?" Nope, that was a different Matthew McConaughey Romcom. Nice anecdote about the sort of things that stick in your head.
I'm absolutely fascinated by the job titles screenwriters or writers in general come up with for their characters. I actually read the post you linked to where you very correctly noted that screenwriters need to stop making their characters writers; it's lazy and maybe more importantly most writers actually can't support themselves just from their writing. But I feel like there are four other professions that I feel like are overrepresented in TV and movies; Advertising (which you alluded to in your post), architect, photojournalist and lawyer.
The first three I think are somewhat easy to explain. They are all "Creative" jobs or at least in theory "Creative adjacent". They are jobs I'm guessing various screenwriters actually considered in their previous careers. Think its telling that characters who are architects invariably have a scene where there is a T-square nearby which is important because based on my understanding, modern architects don't really use these tools anymore. I think the other factor is these are real jobs that in theory allow people to make actual steady incomes that are not supposedly "boring" jobs. Think it's a hard sell to have the Love interest not be someone who is gainfully employed unless that is a central part of the story (i.e. "Knocked Up" and even in that one, a big part of the storyline is the main love interest realizing he needs to "grow up" if he's going to be a responsible father and a good partner to a woman out of his league).
Lawyer is interesting one because I think there is another element at a play; is a character in the story either working for "the man" or fighting "the man". Lawyers who work for big corporations are overwhelming usually villains in movies/tv shows and defense attorneys, environmental lawyers, and personal injury lawyers are invariably heroes.
Feel like the paradigm example of what I'm getting at is the show "How I Met Your Mother". Ted, the main character is an architect. His best friend is a lawyer, but wants to become an Environmental lawyer. In fact there is a whole story line how he has to work for a giant bank and hates it the entire time. Finally Barney, who works at said bank, absolutely loves working for the bank, but is also a roguish womanizer; the fact he loves working for "the man" is part of the humor that comes with his character.
One last thing. I'm sort of fascinated how often I've seen photographer or photojournalist as the love interest for a female character. Given romcoms are usually directed towards women (I know, "hot take" with that one), curious if the female commentariat has some theories. Mine is it sort of hits the sweet spot of being a "real job" (So he's not bum sleeping on the couch with no money), a "creative" endeavor and if we're talking photojournalist carries the whiff of "danger" and "adventure" given this job in theory involves flying off to random countries and in theory putting themselves in harms way like say a war zone. Not being a straight woman or gay man, there's definitely a bit of educated guessing on my part, so curious if I'm on to something with explanation.
The protagonist in (500) Days of Summer dreams of being an architect (beautiful work) but is working at a greeting card company (hack work)…I think you’re on to something.
I do think it's funny that 500 Days of Summer became an inspiration for the "Manic Pixie Dream girl" given Zoey Deschenel became almost the poster child for this archetype. Feel like Ethan Hawke is the male version (think "Reality Bites" or "Before Sunrise (Actually love this trilogy). I know "manic pixie dream" girl/guy is something narrower as a criticism; that these characters exist as "free spirts" only as a way to help the main character self actualize.
But they are hitting on something else, which is that none of these characters are "staid" or "corporate". In fact, an underrated part of these characters is that their whole ethos is almost anti-corporate even if that's not all a stated part of their character.
What I think I'm getting at is, the criticism from right wingers about Hollywood is not 100% bunk (although I think a lot of it is) and that there are subtle character type tropes that reflect the fact most screenwriters and directors are politically left of center.
To the photographer/videographer point – I think your read on that choice is pretty much spot on. I'm a woman who works in the creative industries and photography and video guys *do* tend to have an in-built hotness to them – they're usually an attractive mix of outdoorsy and cultured, technical and creative, and at a very basic level they can lift heavy things.
So, a fashion magazine writer who really wants to write about politics in the fashion magazine. So Andi grew up to be the editorial staff of Teen Vogue?
Exactly lmao
Oh, but obviously Lana is married to an Asian guy named Jong. Her mother-in-law keeps giving her traditional dresses for birthdays, and she's learned to love the fashion. It's not cultural appropriation, it's making your mother-in-law happy.
I like this lore
See, I was thinking Lana Jong has a Dutch father who was a textile trader and an American mother who is a buyer for a NYC department store, they met and lived in Hong Kong. But after the Chinese Revolution, they moved back to NYC but never gave up their household penchant for Asian aesthetics. Little Lana grows up speaking English in a privileged cosmopolitan household that takes the business side of fashion very seriously. Lana never married and has no interest in it.
I was about to say this lol. She married an Asian man and leaned WAY in.
LMAO YES. I was going to have her lore be "She married an Asian guy, they got divorced, she never got over it and now does all this out of her sick obsession with her ex" but this is more wholesome
Totally agree! If I can quote my Letterboxd review of the film:
“There's a plot device in some comedies that I have decided to call "You Have the Wrong Problem." This is when the protagonist isn't getting what they want out of their job, but the job they have isn't menial or entry-level, it's a hard job to get with a very specific set of duties that just don't include what the protagonist wants to be doing. The first scene of this movie is Kate Hudson, who has her own column in a fashion magazine, complaining that in her job she doesn't get to write about the plight of the people of Tajikstan. This is the wrong problem for a fashion columnist to have, because to get that extremely exclusive job that thousands of people would kill to have, you would have had to jump through a million hoops and develop your skills and connections to a very high level, and it's not conceivable that you could have done all that while holding the illusion that at some point they were going to let you write about Tajikstan. So the job, which was supposed to humanize her—don't we all feel dissatisfied with our jobs?—instead makes her seem incoherent and ungrateful.”
https://boxd.it/9kGnkT
That's a great way of putting it. I feel like a lot of movies from the 90s/early 2000s had this, because we were still coming off the Gen X theme of "I don't wanna work for the MAN, man!" but without any empathy or social consciousness to go along with it. That's what I noticed watching Reality Bites recently. What, exactly, is Ethan Hawke's problem? He thinks he's too good for a job like Ben Stiller's, but it's not like he's doing something more interesting instead. It's just uncool to care about stuff, I guess, so he's the coolest. But I feel like in a post 9/11 world, not caring is very uncool, because it codes as having so much privilege you can afford not to care.
Yeah and there’s also a lack of curiosity about what these jobs entail. Obviously anyone could be a fashion columnist! Spitting out 800 words about shoes twice a month? What could be easier?
I didn't realize how similar this movie was to The Devil Wears Prada. Why are all Andies political writers stuck at a fashion magazine??
That movie is much better because it treats fashion as an interesting topic Andie is snottily looking down on, whereas this one is just snottily looking down on it.
Yes! I feel like fashion was treated with a lot more respect in devil wears Prada, which is of course to be expected as it’s a fashion movie, but still
LOL
I just made (and then deleted) a comment about this comparison! Evil fashionista antagonists must have been a 2000s thing. The name Andi/Andy probably hit the right balance of seriousness, style/attractiveness, and youth for the time, I think it was a UMC name then.
My husband and I still quote "our love [insert trivial object that someone just broke]...you let it DIE!"
these early 2000s romcoms also convinced me the working world was going to be so much more glam than it is, even as a writer. sitting in my little H&M outfit in a sea of empty beige cubicles wondering where all the hot available men are (I sat next to HR and worked in comms, the like 4 men there were either gay or old lol). but this movie remains one of my favorite to rewatch when I have a hangover!
Where is my one bedroom apartment with windows overlooking The Major City Skyline for me to pensively watch while I eat my Generic Chinese Takeout??
right?! oh the things we were promised…
When I was younger there were always articles/advice about how to take your outfit from day to evening…I work from home now, but I did work in a big city for ten years, I literally never needed an outfit to go from “day to evening” even if I got a drink with colleagues my office clothes were just fine!
That reminds me of how LL Bean used to have actual quality real wool separates, herringbone skirts and trousers, and called them "weekend" wear. I always wondered what woman dressed down for the weekend by putting on a herringbone wool skirt.
Please, can I go back in time and buy all the clothes I can't get anymore?
omg yes! I was so convinced this would be a huge part of my adult life. instead me and my little business casual outfit just went next door to a falling-down bar called the Whiskey Priest with my coworkers and it was all fine.
This (and the subsequent conversation) feels like the female equivalent of John Mulaney’s, “As a kid, I thought quicksand was going to be more of an issue than it’s turned out to be in adult life.”
I was also really over-prepared to deal with quicksand thanks to my childhood reading! very underprepared fo things like taxes lol.
Other things that movies/tv shows convinced me of when I was young
- Offices are located disproportionately in "hip" loft spaces converted from warehouses. Yeah real life not so much.
- Office romances are very common and you can totally expect to find a long term relationship through someone at the office. Fun fact, before I met my wife, I dated and was briefly engaged to someone I met at the office. So in fact this actually turned out to be correct for me!
- You'll totally have lots of time for extended lunch breaks and long chats with office friends. I definitely have on occasion been able to take longer lunches and definitely have had plenty of friendly chats in the office with colleagues (See above regarding dating), but yeah the kind of lunch break/chats that happen in the office in this movie or tv shows/movies in general? Not so much*.
* I gotta say, I watched "Office Space" for the first time in mid 20s. Definitely enjoyed the movie and definitely had some great insights (the inanity of how much of your job involves stuff like making sure you're using the new cover letter template, the cold calculated way companies can just let you go, the frustration with dealing with printers/fax machines/computers that just stop working and thereby wasting your day, stuck in traffic and watching cars go faster in another lane only for that lane to stop when you merge into it etc.). But I gotta say, my takeaway was kind of "Are we really sure this is some terrible place to work?" White collar job that pays probably reasonably well to afford a decent apartment, can just go to a sit down breakfast like 30 minutes after arriving to work (like seriously what?!), have some decent work friends you can chat with, not too much apparently physical exertion. Honestly, this office seems pretty decent to work at.
yes to all of this! especially the hip offices (I have never worked in one lol, although I worked in finance and insurance until I started working for myself which are deeply unhip) and also all the sit-down breakfasts on a weekday morning! like I can't think of a working adult who regularly has time for that hahah.
I feel like the movie "Pleasantville" kind has fun with that movie/tv show trope of the big family breakfast. Think correctly pointing out that the idea of family all sitting around a table having pancakes, eggs, cereal and like seven other items has basically always been wildly unrealistic and a figment of TV imagination.
I’m with you, ~10 year age gaps in relationships aren’t creepy but do need to be acknowledged! My ex was 14 years older than me (I was in my early 20s and he in his late 30s) and it was very much A Thing. We were in quite different stages of life in so many ways.
Filming must have caught Ms Jong at a very Chinese time of her life…
lol
“aLEXis looked Chinese as an infant; How many times must I defend myself???”
I kind of wonder if the screenwriter was in a weird cultural space between "woke enough that they're upset Jane stopped publication" and "not woke enough to avoid having a character in basically yellowface."
Feels pretty 2003 to me
Woke in 2003 was "Don't use the N-word."
I always find it amusing when people say “checks notes” because I like to imagine them actually checking their notes. Like, if you actually had to grab your notebook and flip a few pages to remember Benjamin’s scheme.
If you want a movie without a problematic age gap, try Videodrome! James Woods was actually a couple years younger than Debbie Harry aka Blondie, who played his love interest. Unfortunately the age gap is the only NOT-disturbing thing about the movie, which reminded me what people mean when they say "David Cronenberg body horror shit."
lol I don’t think the age gap was problematic at all. I’m just surprised no one mentioned it!
Haha I just can't resist the phrase "problematic age gap" and today I wanted to shoehorn in a mention of this incredibly fucked up movie I watched last night. Plus I always check the IMDb for cast ages and was genuinely surprised to see an inverted age gap in this flick. Probably due to James Woods looking rough hewn and well dressed for a 36yo, and Debbie Harry / Blondie looking insanely glam and flawless at 38.
James Woods also came out the womb looking 40 . . .
Lol yes. Or maybe he had scarring from acne or something? His cheeks are kind of rough in this movie.
You should write about When Harry Met Sally too! Be interested in your take. I watched it relatively recently and was shocked at how good it was given that I have not historically been a big rom com guy—just a really tight script (not to be an Old Man, but it feels like they don’t write them like that anymore.)
It is 100% the template for all of the 90s and 2000s rom-coms that followed. Yes, a truly excellent script.
I actually just read Fear of Flying, so I wanted to hop in to note: Erica Jong’s last name comes from her ex-husband, Allan Jong, who (if the fictionalized version of him in Fear of Flying is accurate), was of Chinese descent. Which just raises further questions about Lana!
I wonder when they’ll make Gen Z romcoms about beauty and fashion influencers who just want to make political content all day but their audience gets angry and brand sponsorships leave everytime they do.
So my first thought reading this post was "Is this movie that has the absolutely random shot of Terry Bradshaw's butt in the kitchen?" Nope, that was a different Matthew McConaughey Romcom. Nice anecdote about the sort of things that stick in your head.
I'm absolutely fascinated by the job titles screenwriters or writers in general come up with for their characters. I actually read the post you linked to where you very correctly noted that screenwriters need to stop making their characters writers; it's lazy and maybe more importantly most writers actually can't support themselves just from their writing. But I feel like there are four other professions that I feel like are overrepresented in TV and movies; Advertising (which you alluded to in your post), architect, photojournalist and lawyer.
The first three I think are somewhat easy to explain. They are all "Creative" jobs or at least in theory "Creative adjacent". They are jobs I'm guessing various screenwriters actually considered in their previous careers. Think its telling that characters who are architects invariably have a scene where there is a T-square nearby which is important because based on my understanding, modern architects don't really use these tools anymore. I think the other factor is these are real jobs that in theory allow people to make actual steady incomes that are not supposedly "boring" jobs. Think it's a hard sell to have the Love interest not be someone who is gainfully employed unless that is a central part of the story (i.e. "Knocked Up" and even in that one, a big part of the storyline is the main love interest realizing he needs to "grow up" if he's going to be a responsible father and a good partner to a woman out of his league).
Lawyer is interesting one because I think there is another element at a play; is a character in the story either working for "the man" or fighting "the man". Lawyers who work for big corporations are overwhelming usually villains in movies/tv shows and defense attorneys, environmental lawyers, and personal injury lawyers are invariably heroes.
Feel like the paradigm example of what I'm getting at is the show "How I Met Your Mother". Ted, the main character is an architect. His best friend is a lawyer, but wants to become an Environmental lawyer. In fact there is a whole story line how he has to work for a giant bank and hates it the entire time. Finally Barney, who works at said bank, absolutely loves working for the bank, but is also a roguish womanizer; the fact he loves working for "the man" is part of the humor that comes with his character.
One last thing. I'm sort of fascinated how often I've seen photographer or photojournalist as the love interest for a female character. Given romcoms are usually directed towards women (I know, "hot take" with that one), curious if the female commentariat has some theories. Mine is it sort of hits the sweet spot of being a "real job" (So he's not bum sleeping on the couch with no money), a "creative" endeavor and if we're talking photojournalist carries the whiff of "danger" and "adventure" given this job in theory involves flying off to random countries and in theory putting themselves in harms way like say a war zone. Not being a straight woman or gay man, there's definitely a bit of educated guessing on my part, so curious if I'm on to something with explanation.
The protagonist in (500) Days of Summer dreams of being an architect (beautiful work) but is working at a greeting card company (hack work)…I think you’re on to something.
I think the jobs for 500 Days of Summer were chosen for meta genre reasons.
I do think it's funny that 500 Days of Summer became an inspiration for the "Manic Pixie Dream girl" given Zoey Deschenel became almost the poster child for this archetype. Feel like Ethan Hawke is the male version (think "Reality Bites" or "Before Sunrise (Actually love this trilogy). I know "manic pixie dream" girl/guy is something narrower as a criticism; that these characters exist as "free spirts" only as a way to help the main character self actualize.
But they are hitting on something else, which is that none of these characters are "staid" or "corporate". In fact, an underrated part of these characters is that their whole ethos is almost anti-corporate even if that's not all a stated part of their character.
What I think I'm getting at is, the criticism from right wingers about Hollywood is not 100% bunk (although I think a lot of it is) and that there are subtle character type tropes that reflect the fact most screenwriters and directors are politically left of center.
To the photographer/videographer point – I think your read on that choice is pretty much spot on. I'm a woman who works in the creative industries and photography and video guys *do* tend to have an in-built hotness to them – they're usually an attractive mix of outdoorsy and cultured, technical and creative, and at a very basic level they can lift heavy things.
The last one made me smirk because wife likes to joke that my main role in the house to "pick stuff up and put stuff down".
As a feminist I do unfortunately also find the ability to pick stuff up and put it down to be a key skill for any straight man
Yes, that was Failure to Launch which I really liked. I wonder if CHH has a take on that movie.
ACCCCKSHUALLY.....Google was the dominant search engine by 2003.
"Googlewhack" was a nerd term for a word combo with only one Google hit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Googlewhack
I was thinking this too. Ask Jeeves was more like 1999 I think.